Everything You Always Wanted To Know About The All Saved Freak Band
[but never had the chance to ask]

An interview with co-founder Joe Markko by Jeff Stevenson from Well Done Productions

 

When you listen to HARPS ON WILLOWS, the “best-of” CD from the All Saved Freak Band [ASFB], you’re immediately reminded of a different era in music. And that makes perfect sense when you consider the band’s gene pool.

1968 would turn out to be a watershed year for rock music: The Jimi Hendrix Experience released their masterpiece ELECTRIC LADYLAND; Pink Floyd founding member Syd Barrett checked himself into a psychiatric hospital and was replaced by David Gilmour, with whom the band released their transitional second album, A SAUCERFUL OF SECRETS; The Yardbirds broke up, and from the leftover pieces Led Zeppelin was formed.

1968 was also the year that ASFB was formed. Although they always had their own independent and distinctive sound, you can hear strains of Pink Floyd’s eerie atmospherics in “Ancient of Days” and a bit of Led Zeppelin’s dazed and confused technique in “Theme of the Fellowship of the Ring.” Featured in all four of the band’s albums was Glenn Schwartz, the guitar player who was a personal favorite and friend of Hendrix. “Guitar Glenn” plays as bold as Hendrix on such fiery ASFB tracks as “Don’t Look Back,” “All Across The Nation,” and “Daughter of Zion.”

Although that bygone era and some of the bands and musicians are no longer with us, ASFB co-founder Joe Markko is alive and well and for the first time talks in detail about life with ASFB and how HARPS ON WILLOWS came into being.
 

Formation, life with the band and on the road 

JS: When the band came together in 1968, how aware were you and the other band members of the music being recorded at the time, and if so, which artists were you fans of? 

JM: Larry and I started the group in his living room on Blaine Street in Geneva, Ohio in September of 1968. Since our commitment to Christ included “separating” ourselves from anything having to do with “the world,” we stopped buying and listening to contemporary music as soon as we got saved. You couldn’t help but hear the latest tunes on the radio so we kept loosely in touch with what was happening in music but there was zero Jesus music on air. In consequence, we were completely unaware that anyone else was doing exclusively Christian content in their music until more than a year later when Larry and I sat down to listen to Larry Norman’s album, UPON THIS ROCK. We were astonished by the fact that this musical "thing" seemed to be happening simultaneously in "pockets" across America. While the album provided great encouragement and validation for what we were doing, it actually discouraged me a bit as a musician. It made me think, “Man, have we got a long way to go.” It was so good and we were so amateurish.

JS: Did you listen to or were you aware of any Christian music in the late 60s/early 70s, and if so, what did you listen to? 

JM: Because we lived in an isolated community we didn’t know anything about anybody until long after things happened. We didn’t even have T.V. sets. Word of Fred Caban and his band Agape reached us earliest, I believe, then the groups Selah and Bridge. In early 1974 Larry made a trip to Scott Ross’s “Love Inn,” another Christian "commune" in New York, where Phil Keaggy had recently joined their number. Phil played with us for a few weekends while he was still playing with the college bar band, Glass Harp. We received glowing reports from Larry of the great things happening in Brother Keaggy’s life and we were thrilled when he began to record exclusively Christian content but, other than those kinds of connections, we really didn’t know of any others.

JS: Tell me about the first time you met Glenn Schwartz. Were you aware of his background and stature as a guitarist?  

JM: Larry went to meet Glenn when Pacific Gas & Electric was on tour in Buffalo just before “Are You Ready” first hit. As soon as Glenn returned to Cleveland, Larry asked me to go see him play. He was playing as part of a power-trio with his brother Gene and friend Jim Fox. When we walked into Faragher’s Bar in Cleveland Heights, the band was cranked up playing Glenn’s version of “Brick House.” Though I’d heard his work on recordings nothing quite prepared me for his live performance. He simply blisters the air. There was absolutely no thought that Glenn would play with us. We just went to hear, meet and encourage another brother in Christ.

JS: Was it at all intimidating for you or the band to play with Glenn?   

JM: It wasn’t intimidating - it was stupefying. “THIS guy….this guy is going to condescend to play with us?” His skills and the doors they might have opened for him never escaped any of us. He was a great encourager to all of us and his gentle demeanor never left anyone feeling intimidated.

JS: Was Glenn still under contract to Columbia or whomever Pacific, Gas & Electric was signed to? Was it as simple as it sounded, that he just walked away from the band and record company? Did they attempt to track him down, refuse to allow him to record with you or did they try and sign you since he was part of the band? 

JM: It was just that simple. He walked away. While he’s still owed royalties for movie soundtracks and recordings, he received nothing the entire time we were together, more than 10 years. When he came to the Farm he had nothing. I went to pick him up in Cleveland after his wife threw all his personal belongings out on the front lawn -  guitars, amps, clothes and the Bible she tore up and threw at him. It was a tragic, heart-breaking time for him all because he chose to just “walk away” from money and fame for Jesus.

JS: How formed was the band when Glenn arrived – was the existing band [Preacher and the Witness] simply you and Larry and then Glenn and the others joined, or was Preacher and the Witness already a “band” that simply added a new lead guitarist? I already had the sense that Preacher and the Witness was an acoustic or folk band.  

JM: The band was primitive when Glenn arrived – drums, piano, rhythm guitar and bass. Though I’d been in a studio a few times in Chicago, none of the others had any experience in recording or writing songs. In fact, I had to teach my brother Randy how to play bass. Larry was a wordsmith and gifted poet, and I’d performed publicly as a musician since I was nine so, between us, we managed to hammer out enough songs to constitute a “set” before Glenn arrived. It was the exclusively Christian lyric content that attracted Glenn.

JS: How did the name All Saved Freak Band come into being?   

JM: We were practicing on the front porch at our communal farm and Larry mentioned he felt a need for a name change for the band. It turned into a comedy break and I threw out the name, “All Saved Freak Band,” suggesting we were all just a bunch of saved freaks anyhow. After a few chuckles and comments Larry zeroed in on that one adding the name “Glenn Schwartz” as a preface.

JS: I saw on one of your concert riders from 1977 that you had at times up to 13 people traveling with or in the band. Would that be you, Larry, Pam, Kim, Glenn, Mike, Ed, Tom, Carole, Morgan…some sound people or how did the band flesh out to so many?  

JM: Morgan on bass [later replaced by Norris], Pam and Kim on strings, Carole on organ, Larry on piano, Tom on drums, Timmy and Tom Miller on percussion, Glenn, Ed and myself on guitar, Mike on acoustic and vocals and “Doc Pitts” as roadie. Does that make 13? While everyone did not play on every song, it provided enough variety in instrumentation to do some interesting things.

JS: Were you a “loud” band with so many performers on stage or do you think the band was more “folk rock” in sound?  

JM: The answer is yes. We were loud enough to have our electrical connections cut off on more than one occasion. We were reared on Hendrix, Cream and Blue Cheer. When it was time to crank it up….. we smiled. However, we always moved toward an acoustical, classical edge as we approached a concert’s end. We gave our testimonies between songs and had altar calls at the end.

JS: Did you ever tour with other Christian/mainstream bands or open for other Christian/mainstream bands or did other Christian/mainstream bands open for you?  

JM: That only happened once in Chicago and was set up by the promoter of the event. I don’t remember who the opening group was but I do remember something Glenn said that still knocks me out. He and I were walking up a hallway after leaving the stage and a young lady came running up to Glenn yelling his name. She was gushing, “That’s the most incredible guitar playing I've ever heard in my life.” Without breaking his stride Glenn responded, “I know. The devil told me the same thing five minutes ago.”

JS: Did you play live very often? What were some memorable experiences playing live—the reactions from the crowd, were they genuinely favorable to the sound and message of the band? 

JM: The band played every week for church services, wherever we were meeting, and we tended to play locally several times each year as well as some sort of annual “tour.”
 

Other than pulling the acoustic guitars from the trunk of the car and singing to a few folks on street corners, the smallest venue we played was likely a mental institution in Vermont. It was outside and there were probably a dozen patients there, one who continued to announce himself as a long-deceased king. One young lady thanked me afterward by giving me a picture she’d drawn of me: a stick figure with a big smile and hook on the right “arm.” What a great gift. You had to be there. The largest venues also tended to be outside in Fort Lauderdale, Chicago, New Orleans and a few Ohio “rock” concerts.

JS: Did you travel by van or bus? 

JM: We traveled using our own vehicles. What we couldn’t get in my Volkswagen Van got jammed into the trunks of cars. It was a convoy. Since we paid for everything, there were many times when the only thing we had to eat as we traveled were sardines and crackers. Hotels and restaurants were generally out of the question.

JS: Did you usually have the same set list or did it vary at times?  

JM: The set list varied almost every time. We wanted to start out and end with the same “kind” of songs each time but, with so many people contributing, listeners often heard different songs from concert to concert. We also modified the list for the need. In prisons we were much more aggressive than in a church, for example.

JS: When you played live, who did most of the talking between the songs? 

JM: As pastor of our home church, Larry became the band’s leader by default. He was the moderator and preached at the end.

JS: Did the individual songwriters introduce their songs or did one person do most of the speaking?  

JM: Actually, we didn’t introduce our songs. An individual would be highlighted before giving their testimony and a song would flow directly from the testimony. Or Larry would set up a song with some commentary but I don’t know if we announced song titles or authors.

JS: Did Larry or the band have much of a sense of “humor” when they played live, or was it pretty much a “serious” affair for each performance?  

JM: The band did a whole lot of laughing. Lots of cryin’ too. We were serious about our attempts to win the lost but our sense of humor showed through when appropriate.

JS: I was curious about the songs with extended guitar breaks in them: Did you play “Don’t Look Back,” “Great Victory,” or “Daughter of Zion” much? Did Glenn do a lot of solos or was he more or less “reined in”?   

JM: As an example, the recorded version of several songs, including "Seek Him" and "All Across the Nation," are one verse longer than they were when we entered the studio. It felt right so we just kept going. There was great spontaneity and much room for creativity in the music. That reality extended to everyone so if someone had a good idea we just “jammed” until something came out of it. All the songs mentioned were played often.

JS: On the upbeat, rock songs, did the audience dance or get into the more raucous music, or was that discouraged?  

JM: We actually had people dance in several different venues. It was OK when the Christians in the black churches got in the aisles and started dancing. We weren’t as easy with it when people in minks and jewels danced at the Mayor’s Mardi Gras Ball in New Orleans. Each was an entirely "different" thing. We didn't know what to do with it but dancing certainly wasn’t encouraged. I think we may have stopped playing once or twice.

JS: Do you think overall that you played more to Christian audiences, mainstream, or a mix? 

JM: Our goal was to win the lost and the intensity of our passion for that put us at odds with most churches. We weren’t at all concerned about political correctness if it got in the way of our efforts.

JS: The band formed in 1968, yet it wasn’t until 1973 that your first LP, MY POOR GENERATION was released. Was it a matter of finances that caused the delay? With Glenn joining in 1970, I would think you’d want to put an album out as soon as possible.  

JM: Finances and the questions of our own spirits were the delay. The financial demands of the Farm where we lived and the simple needs of caring for a group of 50+ people were rather high. But we also questioned our own souls at every step. Is this too much? Is this music actually Christ-honoring, etc? The band was never intended to be an end in itself  and it took us awhile to determine that recording the music was OK for us. We were evangelists first, musicians second. Sometimes spending money on gospel tracts and a published newspaper for our street ministry was more important than a recording.

JS: Let’s talk about the recording process. I know you met producer Rob Galbraith while on tour in Nashville in 1970. He has since gone on to work with Ronnie Milsap, Kenny Rogers and contributed vocals to a “Finding Nemo” soundtrack, and produced actor Kevin Bacon’s band, the Bacon Brothers. Was he well known at the time when you met him?  

JM: A group known as the “Musical Hart Family,” a well-known Southern Gospel group at the time, was our sponsor for the Nashville trip and they introduced us to Rob. He was gaining a reputation in the Christian community and worked as a Studio producer for Columbia taking care of local recording groups who had no producer. It was his guidance alone that helped chip many of the rough edges off the group. Rob donated all his studio time with ASFB. Remember that this kind of music was relatively new and it provided him opportunity to express his faith as well.

JS: Any moments that stand out when you think about the recording of any of the four albums?  

JM: Not so much a moment as an overall observation. Most of us feel we were held back, that the music might have been much, much better than it was but Larry’s voice was the one we followed. Upon leaving the studio when we’d finalized the BRAINWASHED album he told me, “This is as far as we go,” meaning this is as far as we’re taking the rock or contemporary sound. That’s why following recordings have a different edge.

JS: Did Glenn usually nail his solos on the first take—or did you go with whatever he did because you didn’t have money for a second or third take?  

JM: We had monies for second and third takes when it came to solo issues. Perfection, however, was something we had to sometimes let go. Though Glenn didn’t require many retakes he always got whatever he needed when it came to that.

JS: How did you go about selecting the artwork and any inner sleeve contents for each album? Was it a group consensus? Did anyone have any art experience that you all deferred to?  

JM: Again, Larry made the choices for the covers and provided the content for written materials. The picture on the MY POOR GENERATION album was taken while we performed on a street corner somewhere in downtown Cleveland, Ohio. The banner announcements provided by the event planner had us listed as the “All Sane Free Band.”  What a "hoot." The BRAINWASHED cover wasn’t laid out properly. I know because it was a therapy project for me after I first lost my hands. The word, "BRAINWASHED," was supposed to be embedded in soapsuds directly on the graphic of the brain as if scrubbing it. Oh well.

JS: Looking back, what was the most enjoyable album to record and why?  

JM: The first one, My Poor Generation. We were our most innocent, simple and undamaged when we recorded it. Combining the enthusiasm and camaraderie of new believers with an unequaled time of musical exploration resulted in some eternal memories.

JS: What album, in hindsight or at the time, was the most troublesome to record and why? 

JM: SOWER was the most difficult to get done. That’s in large part because I’d left the band prior to its release and had issued a letter stating I didn’t want my name or music to appear on the recording. Since much of the music on that project was mine, it put the band and communal church at the CRC Farm at a distinct disadvantage. After threatening me with a lawsuit and the destruction of my ministry, [I'd since become a Pastor with the Assemblies of God] I prayed about it and decided to let it go. I didn’t have the heart to battle my old friends. Otherwise, SOWER would have never been released.

JS: Any idea which of the four LPs was the best selling?      

JM: BRAINWASHED seems the best seller but I think MY POOR GENERATION still gets the best responses. That album seems to have captured a moment in time for a lot of believers.

JS: Which album[s] do you think best captures the sound of ASFB? 

JM: I don’t know that I can answer that because I don’t know what “the sound of ASFB” might be. I do know the HARPS ON WILLOWS collection is intended to “best capture the sound” on one recording. It will be argued that the “best” songs aren’t actually represented but the focus of this recording is historical rather than musical. It’s a capstone, not a foundation, and it’s the last project we’ll ever authorize. I can’t really speak for the albums but I think the songs "Seek Him," "Stephen" and "The Big Race" by Glenn, Mike and Ed capture everything we ever tried to do, and they are certainly my personal favorites. Every one of them will stand the test of time.

The making of HARPS ON WILLOWS

JS: I’d like to talk about each of the four albums in the order they were released and pay special attention to the songs from those albums that are included in the best-of HARPS ON WILLOWS CD. Why were these particular songs selected for HARPS ON WILLOWS? 

JM: We chose the songs for a few, very specific reasons. First, we wanted to create something that would be as close to an actual concert event as we could. It was all about getting people’s attention and then leading them, musically, to an altar call. Though the music was recorded on four albums over a period of nine years, all the songs were played as a whole in concert. That’s what we wanted to communicate, what people actually heard when they stood there for an hour. The songs were also selected in an effort to remember as many different members as possible. Consequently, Mike’s best, Carole’s best, Glenn’s best, etc., provided opportunity for everyone to continue to bless lives.

JS: What was the source material available to you for this release? 

JM: Since none of the original, 16-track Master tapes were available to us, we used two different sources for the recordings: original copies from our distributor and a previously unheard copy of the SOWER album using completely different mixes. It's from an old, studio-produced, 1⁄4 -inch tape that resurfaced about two years ago.

JS: How did you decide on the title HARPS ON WILLOWS? 

JM: Psalm 137 says, “We hung our harps upon the willows…saying…how shall we sing the Lord’s song in a strange land?” That’s what every one of us felt in relation to the music and ASFB when we left the CRC Farm. For us, the simple act of changing churches marked the end of our efforts in music. It was something of ourselves we left behind never expecting to recover. Consequently, everything for the HARPS ON WILLOWS project - the title, artwork, even the use of the notation "Volume One," are intended to convey the idea that something long thought dead to us yet has life. For us, this entire project has been about placing a victorious ending on a previously unfinished story, an exclamation point in time.
 

We wanted to make the recording worth the purchase for those few people who may already have all four of the other CDs. Toward that end we added two, short, never-released pieces that were originally part of a 3-piece segue done at many of the concerts. We also found three, never-before-heard alternate versions of previously released tracks. We wanted to end up with a single CD that most nearly represents what we feel we were all about. We were about winning "the lost," touching people right where they were. In all, we're hoping friends and collectors will find HARPS ON WILLOWS a worthwhile listen.

JS: Tell me something about the artwork for HARPS ON WILLOWS and the artist who created it. 

JM: We met Dennis Preston as the result of some work he did for our distributor, Hidden Vision Records. To us he was the "Peter Max" of the Mid-West. We presented him the idea of a single hand attempting to drag a guitar out of an untended grave set in a circular format, and he captured the rest from there. It was his idea to give the guitar a "Middle Earth" look from which other, detailed pieces fell into place. Dennis can be reached via his Web site.

All about MY POOR GENERATION 

JS: Let’s begin with your 1971 debut, MY POOR GENERATION. I don’t think there were any identifying photo credits, but I’m guessing that’s Larry Hill on the cover?  

JM: As I mentioned earlier, that is Larry. He was the front man for everything. No one else’s individual pic was ever included on any albums or publications.

JS: How about the final track order for MY POOR GENERATION? Was there a certain order or song structure or “message” you were trying for?  

JM: Remembering that two of our number had been recently killed, Glenn had been kidnapped and I’d been electrocuted with 27,000 volts – our hearts needed the sense of pervading gentleness that comes with many of those songs. They ended up being songs that ministered to us on a number of levels.

JS: Like most of us, my first impression of ASFB was “Elder White,” the first track on your debut. Why was this song chosen to introduce the world to ASFB? Since Glenn was being featured so much, why not a more rocking number or one that featured him more? 

JM: Elder White sets a mood as much as anything else and we wanted people to approach this music thoughtfully. It was also “way” different from anything else we’d heard and Civil Rights was a very large issue at the end of the Sixties.
 

The experience of several band members was deeply steeped in the black churches. No foolin’ about that one. We’d been working in the inner city for a long time before we were ever a band and this was an important issue to us. Elder White ended up being a song that’s against prejudice in any form, consequently the final line: "His mother was a Jew." The song is based on our common experiences with friends from the Apostolic Faith Churches as well as the Church of God in Christ.

JS: It’s interesting that in this song, we are already hearing about “cities on fire.” So right out of the gate, ASFB wasn’t messing around. And this theme of coming destruction was carried forth in each of the albums.  

JM: We believed the return of Christ was imminent and that souls were in the balance. There were enough people singing worship choruses.

JS: The song “There Is Still Hope In Jesus” was originally written as the closing theme song for a Saturday night radio broadcast program called “Time for the Risen Christ" that was heard on WREO radio in Ashtabula, Ohio. Did you and Larry host the program?  

JM: Larry’s success as an evangelist peaked in 1967 – 1971. The church he pastored had a radio program almost a year before I rejoined him in ’68. My only contribution was music and testimony.

JS: “There Is Still Hope In Jesus” is one of those tracks that really sneaks up on you. I know when I first heard it on MY POOR GENERATION, it was the 10th of 11 tracks and I was still trying to figure out if I even liked the record or not because it sounded so different than what I expected. I think I was expecting this incredible hard rock album but it was really all over the place. So I came to this track and to hear Larry’s gruff and somewhat raspy voice open up by saying: 

“There's a rainbow for every cloud

And there's a smile, my friend, for every frown..”  

JM: I’d written the music using some jazz chords that were holding my interest at the time but the only words that would come were those of the chorus,

 

There is still hope in Jesus
Let Him pick up the pieces of your life - and start anew
There's so much good you can do.

 

Larry filled in the balance, almost stream of consciousness like. Perhaps we might have been more focused in our choice of songs but we were young and didn't know enough to care. Since we really didn't anticipate any more recordings we wanted to publish as much of a cross-spectrum of the group's music as possible.

JS: Were there any cassette or 8-track releases of your music?  

JM: We recorded a 45 single with "Ode to Glenn Schwartz" on one side and "Seek Him" on the other. There are still a few copies floating around.

JS: Since you were not signed to a "major" label, how did you go about getting the albums distributed? 

JM: Word of mouth. Pam Massmann took care of all concert dates as well as all the band’s business. She wrote letters and made phone calls. It all came from that.

JS: Was the album considered a “success” when it was released – do you remember how many were pressed and how it sold or what reception it got?  

JM: I don’t believe we ever had more than 500 copies made of any of the albums at first pressing. There was no market for this kind of music early on and we expected to maybe sell a few at concerts. Our ambitions were pretty small. I know all of us felt very good about having it, but we didn’t really know until recently that the album is a favorite of so many people.

JS: MY POOR GENERATION was released in 1971 and it was three years until your second LP. Why was there such a gap? Was it financial, getting the funds together to record again? Or did you need the time to write new material?  

JM: Our communal farm was a Bible School first and foremost. We weren’t there to make music. We were there to draw closer to God. There were times when we stopped the band practices altogether to focus on other things we felt were more important.

All about FOR CHRISTIANS, ELVES AND LOVERS

 JS: FOR CHRISTIANS, ELVES AND LOVERS was released in 1976. Is that Larry dressed like a wizard on the cover of your second album?  

JM: Yeah, that’s him. He put three pictures together for that cover. The background was actually a church building, the outline of which Larry filled with pictures of rocks and trees. The group is pictured sitting on the steps of the church building. I always felt something was lost in translation.

JS: The title seems a bit “playful” for ASFB—where did the title come from? I get the “Christians” part – but “elves” and “lovers?”  

JM: That title is a contribution from the Massmann sisters. 

JS: This is the one album that lacks songwriting credits by you. Were you active in the band at this time?   

JM: While I’m not credited for it, I did arrange many of the instrument tracks for the group. Larry’s thought was to provide opportunity for everyone else and I strongly supported him in that decision. I had plenty of opportunity on other projects.

JS: “Stephen,” by Mike Berkey, is the first track from ELVES and I know when I first heard it, I played it several times before moving on to the rest of the LP. It’s that good of a song and Mike’s vocals and the music and lyrics are exceptional. I would hope the song would get some airplay today.   

JM: From my perspective, Mike Berkey was the best, pure songwriter in the group. He’s presently working on plays/cantatas that address serious themes such as abortion and child abuse. I feel that "Stephen" is the most complete song we ever recorded.

JS: “Stephen” is one of the “calmer” songs by ASFB, yet it still has that underlying lyrical urgency about it. In this one, we’re told at the start “time is wasting away, we gotta get moving,” “we’re losing hours” and “it’s gonna get very, very dark.” But in the midst of those dire warnings, there is also hope and we’re encouraged to look up. Did the band respond enthusiastically to this when Mike first played it for them?  

JM: I still respond enthusiastically. People often introduced new songs during church services and Mike’s gentle spirit always came through. Yeah, we responded very enthusiastically. That recording was completely molded by Rob Galbraith - chimes, voices, strings, everything.

JS: Although it’s not included on HARPS ON WILLOWS, I have to ask you about one of the strangest songs ASFB recorded, “Theme From the Fellowship of the Ring” from the ELVES LP. You and Larry wrote the song, and I’m guessing Larry wrote the lyrics?

JM: And most of the music. Larry had a piano part that was rough, choppy and challenging to grasp the meter. I helped other band members work out parts to the song. I’m co-writer of the music for that piece. The song was one of several growing from Larry’s appreciation for Tolkien. It was also one of those songs that didn’t make it into all the concerts and most of us were just as happy about that. It wasn’t easy to play.

JS: “The Big Race” by Ed Durkos has also always been a favorite of mine. It has that melancholy sound that R.E.M captured in “Losing My Religion.” And they both have mandolins!

“The Big Race” has a bit of a story to it in that the narrator tries to hide, first by running, then walking. A man warns him of a coming judgment. At the end, we see the narrator is running again, still holding to his foolish pride. So much of Christian music tries to tie things up into an easy and memorable 3-minute song with a happy ending. But in this song, Ed took us all over the place, from judgment, to loss, to warning, and finally ending on despair. Do you remember the circumstances of why Ed wrote this song? How did you and/or the band respond when you first heard it?  

JM: It’s difficult to find time to be alone in a communal setting but each of us managed to find time to write music. Ed was no exception. The song grew from his own longing for the souls of others. He was the quietest man among us with a wonderfully dry sense of humor and when he said something it was always worth listening to. The combination of his gentle voice and lyrics still causes me to weep. It’s a shame we lost his version of “People Get Ready.” He was a quiet anchor and his contributions to the music of ASFB have been greatly undervalued.

JS: The last song I want to talk about from the ELVES LP is the one Carole King and Larry wrote “Old Man Daniel.” Is she singing lead because she really wails on this verse: “You may be travelin' a rough and rocky road.” What a great voice – is she still writing and singing? 

JM: Carole sang “background” with the other ladies on most of the tunes but her vocal style is distinctly different from theirs. She had to ask about the line, “it was because of his frail…” used to describe Glenn's wife. Explaining that Cab Calloway used the term in Minnie the Moocher to describe a girlfriend didn’t do much to help her feel more comfortable with the lyric, but she lets it rip doesn’t she? She lives outside Atlanta writing, singing and leading worship in her home church.

JS: What was the response to the ELVES album—did it perform as well or better or worse than MY POOR GENERATION? 

JM: The response to ELVES was not as strong because the Christian community wasn’t sure of what to make of the album title.

 All about BRAINWASHED

JS: My favorite album is BRAINWASHED, which was also released in 1976. To me, it takes every musical influence of the era and blends them all together. There is great rock with long, swaggering leads from Glenn, plenty of the eerie and unsettling atmospheric music that was all your own, and a couple of those beautiful and stunning songs by Carole and the Massmann sisters. After the somewhat gentle and folksy ELVES album, did you go into the studio and plan to record a rock album?  

JM: BRAINWASHED was actually recorded before the ELVES album and was one of those projects that just seemed to come together. Generally, album titles evolved after we decided to record. “What are we going to do and what are we going to call it?” was the general order of things. If a theme developed, it was generally by accident.
 

But BRAINWASHED was named as an intentional response to our critics who said that our conversions were nothing more than the same. Glenn was kidnapped by famed cult deprogrammer Ted Patrick and held prisoner in a hotel room somewhere in Cleveland. We were on the phones and streets night and day trying to find him. After several days’ efforts they realized they were getting nowhere with Glenn and had to let him go. He called us from a phone booth on the street and we picked him up. The entire album was dedicated to that issue. The final song, "Our Answer," was just that. It was our response to all those who’d tried to harm us and our final words were,

"I'll freewill offerings bring and sacrifice with joy

Thy name is good its praise to sing my tongue I will employ.

Because from all my woes the Lord hath set me free

And He the ruin of my foes hath made my eyes to see."

JS: Mike Berkey’s “Peace Love `n’ Rock and Roll” starts off BRAINWASHED and, like his song “Stephen” which started off the ELVES album, it’s one of those “perfect” songs that you want to listen to again and again. And it’s also such a song of that time, with everyone talking about peace and free love and so on. Do you remember how Mike came to write the song? Was it inspired at all by Glenn and his past? 

JM: It was inspired, among other things, by the loss at Kent State on May 4th. What a tragic waste.

JS: The song, “Ode To Glenn Schwartz,” is one of those eerie and unsettling songs that ASFB is known for. What inspired you to write it--Foxes Book Of Martyrs? Why was it called “Ode To Glenn Schwartz” when he isn’t mentioned in the song? I also have a musical question: is that a bass or guitar riff played throughout?   

JM: "Ode to Glenn Schwartz" was written about him and for him at a time when the pressure from Glenn’s wife and family were so severe that he contemplated going back to his old life. The lyrics that say,

“Fell on my knees once, it hurt so I rose

My woman, my woman dressed me up in white clothes.

She took off her ring and hooked it in my nose

And I follow her now wherever she goes.”  

were designed to describe what was happening in his life. He contemplated abandoning his faith after his wife had him committed to a mental institution, hence the “dressed me up in white clothes” and other comments that were, sadly, a description of the way he was treated.

An electric guitar and bass play the riff together and are joined by the cello after the lead break, giving it a bit more punch immediately out of that break. The little-known fact is that Glenn was the bass player. For those who count measures, there is an intentional effort to turn the beat around in the last few bars resulting in an off-beat syncopation. Does that answer the musical question? Interestingly, Glenn still plays some ASFB tunes in his sets and "Ode" is one he plays regularly.

JS: Who decided to do the whisper vocals on the last verses? I think I had my headphones on the first time I heard it and it really shook me up! Those are the kind of “surprises” that always endeared ASFB to me.  

JM: It was actually Rob Galbraith who suggested the whispers and it worked well with Larry’s raspy voice.

JS: Glenn wrote the song “Seek Him.” Did he ever need help, lyrically, or did his songs come to you pretty much complete?  

JM: Glenn’s songs came complete. All the rest of us had to do was find a part and hang on. His songs came to him rather quickly which only speaks to the fact that he was a pro and we were rookies.

JS: Another huge favorite of mine from BRAINWASHED [not included on HARPS ON WILLOWS] is “Don’t Look Back.” This is one of those songs I had to play three or four times the first time I heard it, because there is so much going on, musically and lyrically. You and Larry wrote this, and I was wondering how this song came about? 

JM: We actually combined two songs. I wrote music and lyrics for the first and last sections while Larry wrote the same for the middle. Musically, the recording has a number of flaws but the song is intensely personal and involves our personal relationship. Larry led me to Christ in Chicago when I was 15. He later came to believe that God was going to judge America for her sins and that the cities, including Chicago, were going up in flames. Eventually moving to the country to learn from him, I likened the situation to Lot and his family leaving Sodom just before the sky caved in. Larry then takes the devil’s position, “If I can’t get to your body, I’ll get to your mind….,” leading to warning and final statement,

"My fadin', dyin' eyes asked for a sign

I couldn't understand it, it was really too much

I saw movin' toward me a white, rattlin' crutch." 

Larry used a pair of white, Canadian crutches that rattled when he walked. It suggested that his presence was a pre-cursor to judgment.

JS: At more than 6 minutes, “Don’t Look Back” features some of Glenn’s longest and most fluid leads – did he just come in and jam or was some of it broken down and then written out, section by section?  

JM: What Glenn did for ASFB can never be calculated. One of the positive things ASFB did for Glenn was to stretch him as a musician. There’s a world of difference between the standard, three-chord blues progression from which he gained his well-deserved reputation and some of the things we were writing. Believe it or not, he had to do a lot of practicing for some of his parts due to the unusual chord progressions taking place behind him. He also had to learn how to sublimate his part when the music became more folk, jazz or classically centered. It stretched all of us in a very positive fashion.

JS: In addition to the solos, the song structure is pretty intricate. The break in the middle when Larry comes in — “If I can’t get to your body, I’ll get to your mind”—the music changes and gets a little more frantic, and then it comes to an ominous change again and Larry speaks as a prophet, and then the music just takes off again. How did all that come together—just playing around with the song or did you always envision it having different movements?  

JM: I’ve always been structure-oriented when it comes to music. My musical background includes playing baritone in an orchestra's brass section for a performance of Swan Lake when I was 12. I’m very much about movements and an interesting flow in music. Music evolves. It’s supposed to take you somewhere. You start out writing one thing and may end up with something different. We felt an interesting juxtaposition could take place in the song. On a personal note, however, it’s one of the recordings that disappoints me most. It didn’t end up anywhere near the live performance.

JS: “Frog Alley” is another song culled from BRAINWASHED. One writer in an “encyclopedia of Christian music” stated that this song is a “musical wonder” but goes on to claim that it is “directed at lower income blacks who lived near the community” and “displays a startling racial insensitivity.” Those conclusions never crossed my mind so I’m curious as to your thoughts. 

JM: I emailed the author a few years ago and told him that several of his facts were incorrect but he was unable to respond. The fact is, “Frog Alley” was based around rumors about us that circulated in that same black community when we first moved in; that WE sacrificed animals and buried them in a well. The black community wasn't NEAR us, we were in the exact heart of it and we chose to live there. We were working among the inner-city poor giving away our clothes and every dime we had to help those folks every night for a long time. The song was about the entire community. “Frog Alley” is what all the locals called the road we lived on because, in the spring, it floods, becomes nearly impassable and is taken over by frogs.

All about SOWER 

JS: ELVES and BRAINWASHED were released in 1976, and SOWER didn’t come out until 1981. By then the group had disbanded and I’ve heard many of the songs from SOWER were actually written or recorded as early as 1971. Is that accurate and, if so, why weren’t they released between 1976 and 1981?  

JM: That’s correct. The band had more than 100 songs copy written, recording only 40 of them on the albums. What we ran out of was time. 1976 was the high point in the band’s history. We traveled extensively and gained our greatest momentum in that year. That was also the year all of us began to realize we might be doing something of value, but we didn’t know our time was about over.
 

Larry’s legal problems began toward the end of 1977 and continued well into 1980. Consequently, band members had concerns that turned out to be much bigger than the music so not much got done.

JS: ASFB’s last album SOWER shows how the balance of the band was pretty much split down the middle, at least lyrically. Of the 9 songs on the album, one is a traditional hymn “The Old Rugged Cross" and you are involved in writing seven of the remaining tracks. And of those seven tracks, the titles themselves show a significant difference in your subject matter. Titles like “Beautiful Morning” and “Inner Light” and “Peace Like A River” are a far cry from your earlier recorded songs such as the ominous “Ode To Glenn Schwartz” and the songs you wrote with Larry. I know that many of these songs were actually written in the early 70s even though SOWER wasn’t released until 1981, but were you going through a change of heart in some respects? 

JM: While my personal preference in music runs toward funk and power-blues, I’m actually better known among our old “church” friends for the softer, gentler material. To be certain some things became more important to me as I grew in Christ but I doubt that’s different from the experience of any believer. I just played what came out.

JS: When the writing credits are split between you and Larry, did that usually mean Larry provided the lyrics and you wrote the music?  

JM: That’s generally correct but sometimes, as in the case of "Frog Alley," I also contributed to the lyric lines. Larry would play something for me and then we’d figure a change needed to take place here or there. As it turned out, many of those changes were where my contributions took place.

JS: You and Larry wrote “All Across The Nation,” which is probably the rockiest cut off SOWER. It’s also know as the “Mississippi Queen” song because the riff sounds a bit like a slow version of the classic Mountain song that guitar player Leslie West created. The only thing missing is the cowbell! You’ve heard this comparison before, right?  

JM: Absolutely. In fact, it was the riff from "Mississippi Queen," slightly modified for the sake of pretence. I’d just heard it on the car radio and was picking it out before a practice session when Larry asked, “What’s that?” I actually informed him it was a take-off on something on the radio and he said, “Play it again.” It went from there. What can I say? He who is not guilty of plagiarism will be guilty of being boring. Glenn made it unique. Some of his final licks on that song cut like a knife.

JS: How does the version of “The Sower” on HARPS ON WILLOWS differ from the original? 

JM: Though I wrote the song “The Sower,” I was never happy with the spontaneous decision to record it with an electric guitar rather than the 12-string acoustic with which it was originally written. So we added a few elements to the original tracks to bring back the sense of depth it was supposed to have while trying to remain relatively unobtrusive. We also replaced the cello with a violin on the bridge in an effort to make it a more unique version.

JS: In addition to “The Sower,” there are alternate versions of “All Across The Nation” and “Old Rugged Cross.” Where did these come from after all these years? 

JM: When ASFB was on tour in 1976, we were in the middle of recording the SOWER album, which was finally released four years later in 1981. I had a personal copy of a 4-track tape, created for me at Cleveland Recording from the original Master. It’s a different mix from the ones we released and the songs “All Across the Nation” and “Old Rugged Cross” on the new recording are also from that same 4-track tape mix. A friend of mine had it and I completely forgot about it until he decided to move. That’s when we found it.

JS: “All Across The Nation” comes across as so rough, lyrically and musically, compared to the other songs you have on SOWER. It harkens back to the judgment that was hinted at in “Elder White” from your first album. This time, we have “People in expectation, Wait for devastation” and “Across the earth the mark of the beast” and it finishes with “All you sinners better get right.” Your typical, happy-go-lucky ASFB song, right?  

JM: We were always a “way up in your face” kind of people when it came to evangelism. The lyrics came rather spontaneously from Larry once we figured out what we were going to do with the music. I think the whole thing was done in a couple of hours or less.

JS: For me, the centerpiece of SOWER is an amazing song [not included on HARPS ON WILLOWS] with the extraordinary title of “Prince of the International Kaleidescope.” It’s credited to Hill and Massmann – would that be Pam or Kim Massmann, or did the three of them write together?  

JM: In this particular case it was Kim. The three of them often collaborated on what may be considered some of the more controversial songs we recorded. They were very much about the whole “prophetic” side of things.

JS: This song captures everything that made ASFB stand out in the musical landscape of the time—you can be certain no one else was singing about “Black Madonnas” the Rockefellers, the John Birch Society—or at least not in one almost stream-of-consciousness song! And of course, the listener is chided to “keep on prayin' or in a grave you'll be layin'.” Although you weren’t involved in the writing of this song, can you give us any insight on how it was written, what inspired it?  

JM: To be very honest, though Kim sings the words, they were things we’d been hearing at almost every church service for years. Larry ended up being extremely conspiracy-oriented and was always warning us about groups and individuals he considered false and dangerous. They sang from their orientation, trying to warn the world with what they’d been taught.

JS: Two new songs are included on HARPS ON WILLOWS, both written by you. Tell us a little about them, where and when they were written, and why they were not included on the albums they were intended for. 

JM: The two new pieces are entitled “Peter, Feed My Sheep” and “When You Hear Me Speak Of Jesus [Think Of Love].” They were both written in 1969 when the band was heavily involved in street corner evangelism. Because the two pieces are relatively short, less than two minutes each, they never made good album pieces but were used extensively whenever an acoustic concert was performed. Everyone who heard us live heard these two pieces.

JS: The song “Peter, Feed My Sheep” has beautiful music to it that is contrasted by a disturbing message, which continues the ASFB tradition, of course! If I’m hearing it correctly, Jesus is telling Peter to take care of the flock and then He says:

“For I see the clouds passing through your mind,

Raining on your soul.

And though you may fool all the world,

I'll know, I’ll know, I’ll know.”

I’m guessing the clouds passing through Peter’s mind are the thoughts of denying Jesus but I find it pretty unsettling the song ends with Jesus saying “I’ll know.” I guess I want it to communicate that He understands our weaknesses and have Him comfort Peter, pat him on the shoulder. Instead, He seems to be saying, “You can fool the world, but you can’t fool Me.” It seemed a bit rough, especially when you compare it to the beautiful, soothing music. 

JM: Until the pain of remaining the same is greater than the pain of changing, people prefer to remain the same. The crowing of the rooster on Good Friday wouldn’t have been a comfort to Peter no matter how beautiful the morning or how sweet the tune. A pat on the shoulder doesn’t fix the kind of conviction resulting from such failures. The song was written for all the Peters of the world, including myself, who betray the Lord in our everyday lives and then try to live as if nothing happened.  “Peter, Peter feed my sheep and try to keep yourself from the dawn” are the first words and indicate the song is a loving warning before the fact rather than criticism afterward. Jesus knew the coming dawn would be the hour of Peter’s greatest trial and, under such intense circumstances, “it’ll be OK” isn’t even true. Jesus made no effort to alleviate Peter’s personal discomfort, none at all. Our prayer is that His Spirit might sort through the litter of our clumsy efforts and somehow, in a fashion only He can understand, use them to bring life to a stony heart. Such change is often born in the silence of discomfort, the arena in which each of us wrestles with our own soul. Beyond that, recognizing ourselves as always before His Eyes of Love tends toward healthy change in those who claim Him as Father. “I’ll know, I’ll know, I’ll know.”

JS: I think it’s fitting that the final song on HARPS ON WILLOW is a simple proclamation of God’s love as expressed in “When You Hear Me Speak Of Jesus.”  What a great summation of the All Saved Freak Band – when we hear them sing of Jesus, we should think of love.

Most bands from the 1960s without major backing from a major label and no distribution would quickly fade from the scene and memory. That ASFB—or any band—could manage to record and distribute four albums under those circumstances is almost unheard of. And far from being forgotten, over the years the demand for the band’s one-of-a-kind music has only grown.

Sealed copies of their almost-impossible-to-find LPs fetch anywhere from $200 to $500 on eBay and the band’s name consistently turns up on many favorite band surveys and collectors' “want lists.” BRAINWASHED, MY POOR GENERATION and SOWER can be found on “The Top 50 Collectible Jesus Music Albums of All Time.” [www.One-Way.org]

That same site includes a list of all-time favorite songs voted on by fans and ASFB makes a strong showing, represented with three tracks: “Lonely Street,” “The 100th Psalm” and the infamous “Prince Of The International Kaleidoscope.”

Today’s independent radio stations are not immune to ASFB. A recent playlist from New Jersey’s WFMU FM included ASFB’s “Theme of the Fellowship of the Ring” and “The 100th Psalm” sandwiched between Manfred Mann and, of course, Pink Floyd. San Francisco’s KUSF FM included ASFB’s “All Across The Nation” right alongside the Kinks, the Cramps and Todd Rundgren.
 

And ASFB can be found all over the Internet:

Shawn Porter’s notorious on-line “mix tape” titled “Wasted and Complacent” included “Theme of the Fellowship of the Ring” along with Radiohead’s “A Punch-up At A Wedding.”

A popular and on-going “What are you listening to now?” chatroom has fans posting what’s playing on their iPod at that moment. One recent list included songs by the Cure, others by Joy Division, and then “Water Street” popped up, with the poster stating: “I’m listening to ‘Water Street;’ Glenn Schwartz on the guitar is heavenly.”

A Podcast music sampling site features Fairport Convention, Sinead O'Connor and posts FOR CHRISTIANS, ELVES AND LOVERS and states: “Cult classic currently being shared by Gojira69...an acquired taste but, if you're so inclined, a delicious one...”

And higher education also collects ASFB: The Jesuit run Marquette University in Milwaukee, Wisconsin has a J.R.R. Tolkien Collection which includes a copy of FOR CHRISTIANS, ELVES AND LOVERS.

Although the band hasn’t recorded in decades, it’s clear that neither the music nor the message ever went away. And now with HARPS ON WILLOWS, long-time fans, the curious and the skeptical will all have the opportunity to finally hear the best of The All Saved Freak Band.

— By Jeff Stevenson, May 2, 2006

jcsnyc@hotmail.com